就在剛剛，馬斯克（Elon Musk）在摩根大通總部與摩根大通CEO傑米·戴蒙進行了一次精彩對話。這次對話可以看作SpaceX上市的路演活動之一。
馬斯克在對話中解釋了之所以現在選擇讓SpaceX上市，是為了支撐公司進入一個大規模的基礎設施建設階段。他描繪了一個令人震撼的未來：SpaceX不僅要發射成千上萬顆新一代星鏈衛星（Starlink V3）來提供覆蓋全球的超高頻寬通訊 ，還計畫在太空中建立AI資料中心，並最終在月球上利用其低引力環境，通過電磁加速器等技術實現更大規模的太空計算和能源採集。
此外，馬斯克還分享了他對美國製造業回歸的看法，以及他作為領導者在心態上的變化：他認為現在的自己比以前更“佛系”了，並且在選拔人才時不僅看重智商，更看重一個人是否擁有“善良的心”。
以下中英雙語字幕視訊和中英文全文：
『主持人：伊隆，歡迎來到摩根大通總部。你現在在 51 層，這個高度跟你平時去太空的地方沒法比，但這已經是我們在紐約市能達到的最高處了。在我們正式開始之前，有一位非常特別的嘉賓想在這兒歡迎你——你的母親梅耶·馬斯克也在現場。梅耶，請站起來。我不知道你能不能看到我或者這裡的各位——他們能看到你。嗯，他能聽到。
Host: Elon, welcome to J.P. Morgan's headquarters. You're on the 51st floor, which is about the equivalent of nowhere near where you go generally in space, but as high as we can get in New York City. But before we get started with you and Jamie, we had a very special guest that wanted to welcome you here this afternoon. And so your mother, Mae Musk, is here to welcome you. Mae, please stand up. I don't think you can see me or everybody here. They can see you. Yes, he can.
伊隆·馬斯克：我實際上看不到我媽，但我能聽到她。
Elon Musk: I actually can't see my mom, but I can hear her.
梅耶·馬斯克：我想說的是，你三歲的時候，我跟別人說我有個天才兒子，他們都會翻白眼。然後……
Maye Musk: What I'd like to say is when you were three years old and I told people I have a genius son, they would roll their eyes. And then...
伊隆·馬斯克：當然！說實話，可以理解。
Elon Musk: Sure.Understandable, frankly.
梅耶·馬斯克：我知道。我一直都知道。後來，當你說你要造火箭的時候，就輪到我翻白眼了。然後你真的做成了。所以，今天這是一場很棒的聚會，我們在慶祝。愛你，特別愛你。
Maye Musk: I knew. I knew. And then, when you said you wanted to start with rockets, then I rolled my eyes. And then you did it. And so, this is just a great party here, and we're celebrating. Love you, love you so much.
伊隆·馬斯克：我也愛你。
Elon Musk: Love you too.
主持人：一位驕傲的媽媽。謝謝。
Host: One proud mama. Please.
傑米·戴蒙：伊隆，歡迎你。真的很榮幸在這個重要時刻請到你。這對我們來說是頭一回，但它意義重大——它關乎美國創新的軌跡。我們正在直播，全球 100 個分支機構有 3500 名頂級個人投資者線上觀看。這裡現場有 350 人，全美各地還有 3500 人。
Jamie Dimon: So let me, Elon, welcome you. It's a really privilege to have you here on this momentous occasion. It's new for us, but it's an important thing, the trajectory of American innovation. We're here live, 3,500 people of our top individual investors around the world in 100 branches. There are 350 people here, 3,500 around the country.
傑米·戴蒙：這件事非常特別，因為伊隆一直在談金融民主化。今天就是其中的一部分——讓個人投資者享受和機構、對沖基金同等的待遇。我覺得這是件了不起的事。伊隆，順便說一句，你膽子真大，換了我，絕對不會讓我媽在我面前公開發言，天知道她會說出什麼來。
Jamie Dimon: This is a very unique thing, by the way, because Elon has spoken about democratizing finance. This is part of it, treating individual investors the same way institutions are treated, and hedge funds and all those things. My view is it's a wonderful thing to do. Elon, very brave, by the way, because I would never let my mother speak publicly when I was in the room. God knows what she would have said.
伊隆·馬斯克：其實我完全不知道她也在場。
Elon Musk: I had no idea she was there, actually.
傑米·戴蒙：伊隆是我們這個時代的愛迪生（Edison）。我記得大概 15 年前去特斯拉拜訪伊隆，看到一種全新的造車方式垂直整合，這在當時的汽車行業聞所未聞。現在你又有了 SpaceX。我參觀了 SpaceX 在加州的工廠，太震撼了，650 多枚火箭。你今天跟我說有一個已經上天了，把衛星送入太空。你們在天上有將近 1 萬顆星鏈衛星。星鏈 V3 也快來了，全新一代，有望取代部分海底光纜。這 24 年，看著伊隆一步步成長，實在不平凡。而現在，你正在向未來發起一次巨大的飛躍。
Jamie Dimon: Elon is the Edison of our time. I remember visiting Elon and Tesla like 15 years ago. A whole new way of building cars, vertical integration, which had not been anything remote, what our car companies are doing. Now you have SpaceX. I visited the SpaceX factory in California, and it's exceptional to have more than 650 rockets, and you told me one today, putting satellites in space. You have 9,000, almost 10,000 Starlink satellites up there. Starlink 3 is coming, which is a whole new generation, which hopefully will replace some of these undersea cables. It's been an extraordinary 24 years with watching Elon grow over time. And now you're making a massive leap into the future.
歡迎你的到來。伊隆，我有 10 個問題要問你，我儘量每個都問到。其中一些問題來自現場觀眾，都很重要。第一個問題：為什麼 SpaceX 選擇現在上市？你是有選擇的，不是非上不可。為什麼是現在？
So welcome to coming here. Elon, I have 10 questions for you. So I want to make sure I get to each one. Some of them came from folks here. They're all important. But one, just to start, is why SpaceX public now? Because you had choices. You didn't have to. Why now?
伊隆·馬斯克：嗯，很多年來一直有人問我，什麼時候讓 SpaceX 上市。大概有 10 年了吧，大家一直在建議我推動 SpaceX 上市。我們其實已經保持正現金流很長時間了，大概從 2014-2015 年左右開始。我們一直在自籌資金，實際上我們的私募股權融資輪根本不是為了融資，而是為投資者和員工提供流動性——因為我們給公司每個人都發股票。而且在大多數融資活動中，SpaceX 其實是在回購股票。
Elon Musk: Yeah, I've been asked for many years about taking SpaceX public. So it's probably been, I don't know, almost 10 years that people have been suggesting to me that I should take SpaceX public. We've been positive cash flow for quite a long time, I think, since around 2014-2015. And we've been self-funding, in fact, in our private equity rounds. They actually have not been fundraising rounds. They've been liquidity rounds for investors and employees because we give everyone at the company stock. And SpaceX has actually bought back stock in most of our sort of funding events.
伊隆·馬斯克：現在不一樣的地方在於——有多重原因——我們正在啟動一個大規模增長階段，一個資本密集的增長階段。我們打算在軌道上部署大約 10 萬顆衛星，甚至可能超過 10 萬顆，僅用於通訊。這些將是 V3 及後續版本，而非目前在軌的 V1 和 V2。V3 的能力，看你怎麼算，是 V2 的 10 到 20 倍。SpaceX 晶片設計團隊為此流片了三顆專用晶片，遠超當前最先進水平。
Elon Musk: So what's different about now is that it's a number of things, but we are embarking on a significant growth phase, a capital growth phase, where we are going to put in orbit probably 100,000 satellites, probably over 100,000 satellites, just for communications. And these will be the version 3 and beyond versus version 2 and version 1 that are currently in orbit. Version 3 is, depending on how you count it, 10 to 20 times more capable than the version 2 satellite. And there were three chips that the SpaceX chip design team taped out that are specific to this that are far beyond state of the art.
伊隆·馬斯克：這意味著頻寬將比當前星鏈系統提升 100 倍，同時延遲減半——因為軌道高度只有原來的一半左右。我認為它實際上將成為頻寬最高、延遲最低的通訊手段。而未來，AI 和機器人對頻寬的需求將遠超我們現在使用的量級。你想想，人類的頻寬峰值是多少？每秒幾百位元。但一台電腦的頻寬可以達到每秒一萬億位元。所以 AI 和機器人對頻寬的胃口將是巨大的。
Elon Musk: Which means it's a hundred times more bandwidth than the SpaceX Starlink system currently offers and also half the latency because the altitude will be about half altitude. I think it will actually be the highest bandwidth, lowest latency means of communicating. And the future with AI and robots is actually going to require a lot more bandwidth than we currently use. Because you can imagine, what's the bandwidth of a human? Its peak bandwidth of a human is a few hundred bits per second, but bandwidth of a computer can be a trillion bits a second. So the appetite for bandwidth of AI and robots is going to be enormous.
伊隆·馬斯克：然後我們還在做太空 AI 資料中心，這是另一個巨大的資本項目。但我認為這將是 AI 擴張的主要途徑。在地面上建發電廠越來越難，很少有人希望自家後院冒出一個發電廠來。如果我們想把美國用電量翻一番——目前平均約 500 吉瓦——就得再建一倍的發電廠，而我覺得大多數社區對此不怎麼感興趣。可是，如果邁向太空，我們的發電量可以遠遠超越地球的規模。事實上，這聽起來很瘋狂，但你可以將可利用的能源擴大 100 萬倍，同時消耗的還遠遠不到太陽輸出能量的百萬分之一。
Elon Musk: And then we're also doing the AI data centers in space, which is another massive capital endeavor. But I think it would be the primary means by which AI can be expanded. It's increasingly difficult to build power plants on the ground. There are very few people who want a power plant in their backyard. So if we wanted to say double the electricity usage of the United States, which is on average about 500 gigawatts, we would have to build about twice as many power plants, which I don't think people are... most communities are not super excited about that. But actually if we go to space, we can go far beyond the electricity generation of Earth. In fact, this is going to sound crazy, but you can actually increase harnessed energy by a factor of a million and still be using much less than a millionth of the sun's energy.
伊隆·馬斯克：目前人類文明消耗的能量還不到太陽輸出能量的萬億分之一，想想真是令人慚愧。我們實在是太渺小了——當你看到地球相對太陽的真實大小時，我們不過是無垠黑暗中的一粒微塵。太陽無比巨大，它佔據了太陽系總質量的 99.8%，剩下 0.2% 裡又大多是木星。有時別人問我——這個回答可能扯得有點遠了——但你剛問我為什麼現在上市，我卻在講太陽的能量輸出。連個囉嗦的答案都還沒給你。如果我是 AI，你大概會讓我……行吧。但這確實很重要。
Elon Musk: So, the current human civilization uses much less than a trillionth of the sun's energy output, which is humbling to think about. We're really a tiny... When you see the true size of Earth relative to the sun, we're a tiny dust mote in a vast darkness. And the sun is enormous. The sun is 99.8% of all mass in the solar system, and most of the remaining 0.2% is Jupiter. Sometimes people ask me... I'm maybe going a little wide-ranging in this answer, but... Because you just asked me why you're being public now. I'm like, talking about the sun's power output. I'm like, I don't have a long-winded answer yet. If I was an AI, you might tell me to, you know, okay. But also, but it is important.
伊隆·馬斯克：其中一些事情很重要，因為人們有時會好奇：未來的能源到底是什麼？我可以告訴你，絕對是太陽能。或許更準確的說法是"恆星能"——來自恆星的能量。而最瘋狂的是，即便你把太陽系中除太陽以外的所有質量全部燒掉，太陽產生的能量佔比四捨五入後仍是 100%。因為太陽佔了太陽系質量的 99.8%。就算你從別的星系傳送兩個木星過來，把它們也燒掉，太陽的能量佔比還是四捨五入到 100%。就是這麼誇張。在太空中，你可以將地球經濟規模放大 100 萬倍——以可利用的能量來衡量，這本身就是經濟產出的一個很好的替代指標——而你消耗的仍遠不到太陽輸出能量的百萬分之一。想想我們有多渺小，真的讓人謙卑。而這只是一顆恆星而已。所以，長話短說：我們正在啟動一個巨大的新增長階段，需要資本來實現它。
Elon Musk: Some of these things are important because people sometimes wonder, what's the future of energy generation? And I can say that it is absolutely solar power. Or maybe a better word for solar power is star power. It's the power of a star. And the crazy thing is that it burnt all mass in the solar system. That was not the sun. The amount of energy produced by the sun would still round up to 100%. Because the Sun is 99.8% of the mass of the solar system. Even if you teleported two more Jupiters from another, somehow, teleported two more Jupiters from another solar system and burnt them too, the Sun would round up to 100%. So it's very much the Sun. And you can scale to a million times Earth's economy in space in terms of harness power, which is a good proxy for economic output, and still be much less than a millionth of the Sun's energy, which is, It's humbling, really, to think about how tiny we are. And this is just one star among many. So, I guess the TL, it would be we're embarking on a massive new growth phase and we need capital for that.
傑米·戴蒙：好的，好的。第二個問題。
Jamie Dimon: Okay. Okay. Number two.
伊隆·馬斯克：還有一點是收入——我對收入預測也挺有信心的。以前收入不太穩定，但現在我覺得可預測性強了很多。
Elon Musk: Another thing is the revenue, like I also feel pretty good about like the revenue projections. Like before, like revenue was a little unstable, but now I feel like the revenue is like much more predictable. Yeah.
傑米·戴蒙：每次聽你講話我都能學到東西，我向你保證。當人們聽到多行星物種、太空旅行——這些人類歷史上最激動人心的想法——你能不能解釋一下你常提到的那座橋，從地球通向月球再通向火星？
Jamie Dimon: I always learn listening to you, I guarantee you. When people hear about multi-planetary species, travel to space, one of the most exciting ideas in human history, can you explain the bridge that you speak about, I heard you talk about, from the Earth to the Moon to Mars?
伊隆·馬斯克：好。去火星不一定要經過月球。我只是認為，我們可以在月球上比在火星上更快地建起一座自我生長的城市。另外還有一種可能性：如果你想將規模擴展到遠超地球所能支援的量級，月球因為沒有大氣層、重力只有地球的六分之一，你可以使用電磁加速器——軌道炮或質量驅動器。基本上，你不需要用火箭把 AI 資料中心從月球送入深空，直接用軌道炮一樣的傢伙"射"出去就行了。
Elon Musk: Yeah. Yeah, so you don't necessarily have to go through the moon to get to Mars. I just think that we can build a self-growing city on the moon faster than we can do so on Mars. And there's also the potential, if you say you want to scale far beyond what you can do from Earth is that because the Moon has no atmosphere and about one-sixth of Earth's gravity, you can use an electromagnetic accelerator, a railgun or mass driver. Basically, you don't need to use rockets to do AI data centers into deep space from the Moon. You can literally just shoot them like a railgun type of thing.
伊隆·馬斯克：而且你可以在月球上利用月球材料製造太陽能板和散熱器。這將使年發電量可能超過 1000 太瓦——一個真正驚人的數字。我估計從地球上大概可以做到每年約 1 太瓦的 AI 太空算力，但從月球我們可以做到 1000 太瓦甚至更多。同時，我們還能建一個月球基地。而且我覺得去月球度假會非常酷。
Elon Musk: And you can manufacture the solar and the radiators, solar power and radiators on the Moon from Moon materials. That would allow scaling potentially to beyond a thousand terawatts a year, which is a truly staggering number. Like I think we can do probably somewhere around one terawatt per year of AI space compute from Earth. But we can do a thousand terawatts or more from the moon. And like I said, we can also make a moon base. And I think it would be pretty, pretty cool if you could vacation on the moon.
未知發言人：那將是史詩級的。
Unknown Speaker: That would be the most epic.
伊隆·馬斯克：度假。不是每個人都想去月球，但我相信有很多人想去。前提當然是你能安全地去、安全地回來。我認為未來這是可以實現的。然後火星是更遠的一步。火星是一整顆行星，重力跟地球接近得多，而且有大氣層——雖然比較稀薄。如果你讓火星升溫，有一天可以把火星變得像地球一樣：有液態海洋，有生命，你可以不穿宇航服在戶外行走。所以我把火星叫做"待裝修的星球"，但它潛力巨大。
Elon Musk: Vacation. Not everybody wants to go to the moon, but I think a lot of people do. I think we're pretty amazing, obviously provided you can do so safely and come back safely and everything. But I think that will be possible in the future. And then Mars is another step beyond that. Mars is a whole planet, and with gravity much closer to that of Earth's, and it has an atmosphere, albeit it's an atmosphere. And if you warm up Mars, you could one day make Mars like Earth, meaning with liquid oceans and life, and where you could walk outside without a spacesuit type of thing. So Mars is, I call Mars the fixer-upper of the planet, but it's got a lot of potential.
傑米·戴蒙：讓我接著問第三個問題。不過我從沒想過你會涉足酒店業。
Jamie Dimon: Let me go to number three, but I never ever thought you'd be in the hospitality business.
伊隆·馬斯克：沒錯。月球上應該有酒店，你不覺得嗎？
Elon Musk: Yeah. Absolutely. We should have moon hotels, don't you think? Yeah.
傑米·戴蒙：馬斯克酒店。
Jamie Dimon: Musk hotels.
伊隆·馬斯克：有可能。其實你可以把我們想像成當年的聯合太平洋鐵路公司。當年他們修聯合太平洋鐵路的時候，人們覺得他們瘋了——你為什麼要往加州運這麼多貨、拉這麼多人？那邊一個人都沒有。但現在加州是全美人口最多的州。
Elon Musk: It could be. Actually, you think of us more like we're kind of like the Union Pacific. When they built the Union Pacific back in the day, people thought they were crazy because like, why are you trying to carry all this cargo and people to California? No one's there. But now California is the biggest state in the country.
傑米·戴蒙：不過也不會太久了。好吧。說到星艦，你把它造出來了，一艘令人難以置信的飛船。我記得已經飛了 12 次。但技術上確實很難。有哪些你實現的關鍵突破，是大家還不知道、但其實應該知道的？
Jamie Dimon: Not for long, but yeah. So Starship, you built it, unbelievable ship, I think it's already had 12 flights I read, but obviously technically it's just hard to do. What are some of the breakthroughs you had that people should know about that they don't know about?
伊隆·馬斯克：我們的直播做得非常好，所以我推薦任何想瞭解星艦的人去看 SpaceX 官網或星艦的直播回放，那是瞭解它的好方式。但星艦最根本的突破在於：它將是第一枚完全可重複使用的軌道火箭。這聽起來好像是理所當然的——因為在所有其他交通工具上，無論是飛機、汽車、自行車、馬、輪船，我們都理所當然地認為它們是可以重複使用的。如果每次飛行後都要把飛機扔掉，機票會貴得離譜。而過去的火箭就是這樣的。但從技術上講，讓火箭實現完全可重複使用極其困難。我們通過獵鷹 9 號已經實現了一部分，而星艦將徹底做到。
Elon Musk: Our webcasts are very good, so I recommend anyone, if they want to learn about Sponge Starship, the SpaceX website or any of the Starship livecasts are a great way to learn about it. But really, the fundamental breakthrough of Starship is that it will be the first orbital rocket that is fully reusable. So, this might sound like an obvious thing, but because in every other mode of transport, whether that's aircraft, cars, bicycles, horses, you name it, ships, these are all, we take it for granted that they are reusable. An aircraft journey would be very expensive if you had to throw the plane away every time. And that's how rockets have been in the past. But it's very difficult from a technology standpoint to achieve full reusability for a rocket. We've got part of the way there with Falcon 9, but we'll get all the way there with Starship.
伊隆·馬斯克：一旦實現完全可重複使用，進入軌道的成本就只剩下推進劑的成本——因為飛行器的所有部分都可以重複使用。而星艦使用的推進劑是液氧和液態甲烷，這是你能找到的最便宜的推進劑。氧氣從空氣中直接提取，甲烷來自天然氣。所以星艦的推進劑成本將低於航空燃油，這意味著你可以用比跨洋航空貨運還低的成本將貨物送入太空。
Elon Musk: And once you achieve full reusability, then it's simply the cost of access to orbit is just the cost of propellant, because now you can reuse all aspects of the vehicle. And the propellant we use for Starship is liquid oxygen and liquid methane, which is the cheapest propellant you could possibly get. You can just literally get oxygen from the air and methane from natural gas. So the cost of propellant for Starship will be less than the cost of jet aviation fuel. Which means that you should be able to actually send cargo to space for less than the cost of cargo on an airplane going on a transoceanic trip.
傑米·戴蒙：星鏈，另一項了不起的成就——全球通訊。我們已經提到了烏克蘭。你之前跟我說過 V3 有望替代部分海底光纜，而海底光纜其實是個巨大的安全隱患，因為波羅的海已經有好幾條被切斷了。那麼星鏈的下一步是什麼，V3 乃至 V4？
Jamie Dimon: Starlink, another thing that has been amazing, global communications, we already mentioned Ukraine. You had mentioned to me that V3 would maybe be able to replace some of these cyber cables, which by the way is a huge security risk for all of us because several have already been cut in the Baltic Sea. So what's the next view for Starlink, both V3 and maybe V4?
伊隆·馬斯克：V3 衛星是條"龍"，你可以在網上查。如我所說，它的能力是 V2 的 10 到 20 倍。它是一顆非常大的衛星，實際上只能用星艦來發射——它太大了，地球上其他任何火箭都裝不下。星艦的貨艙直徑有 30 英呎（約 9 米），而 V3 衛星大約 7 米寬，差不多 22、23 英呎。非常大，基本上一輛小巴士那麼大。技術細節很多：我們有更大的相控陣天線，更多的地面鏈路，更多的雷射裝置。我們的衛星之間用我們自己研發製造的雷射通訊。V3 有更多雷射器，而且更先進，還有 W 波段和 E 波段——這些都是技術細節。總之，它就像一個瘋狂的軌道廣播站。
Elon Musk: Yeah, so the V3 satellite is a dragon and you can look it up on the internet. As I said, it's 10 to 20 times more capable than V2. It's a very big satellite. In fact, it can only be launched on Starship. So it's too big to be launched on any other rocket on Earth? So, Starship has a 30-foot diameter cargo bay. And the V3 satellites are, let's see, they're about 7 meters, so about 22, 23 feet wide. So, very big. Like the size of a small bus, essentially. There's a bunch of technical details. We have much bigger phased array antennas. We've got more ground links. We've got more of our laser. Our satellites communicate with each other with lasers that we developed and manufacture. So it's got a lot more lasers and more advanced lasers. It's also got W band and E band. These are the technical details. But it's got a lot of... It's like a crazy orbiting radio station.
傑米·戴蒙：星艦一次能發射 12 到 15 顆？
Jamie Dimon: Doesn't Starship do 12 of them or 15 at once?
伊隆·馬斯克：應該能打 50 顆。因為星艦 V3 的目標是完全可重複使用下 100 噸入軌。而星艦 V4，我們的目標是每次任務超過 200 噸，並且每小時發射一次。
Elon Musk: It should be able to do 50. Because Starship V3 is aiming to do 100 tons to orbit with full reusability. And then Starship V4, we're aiming for over 200 tons per mission. And then being able to launch every hour.
傑米·戴蒙：下一個問題，太空資料中心。你一直在談這個話題，別人也提到過。顯然它有獨特的技術優勢：上面更冷、振動更小。但你還得想辦法把資料傳回地面。我記得你提到過雷射，不分晴雨天。那你深入研究之後，現在覺得難度如何？
Jamie Dimon: Next one, data centers in space. You've been talking about that. Other people have mentioned it, but obviously it has different technical capabilities. It's colder up there. There's less vibration. But you also got to get the data back to the earth by some method. I think you mentioned the lasers in good weather and bad. And so how hard is it to do now that you've looked at it for a while?
伊隆·馬斯克：我們不認為這件事特別難。實際上，我們認為它比我們的通訊衛星簡單得多。星鏈 V3 通訊衛星是一台極為複雜的機器。相比之下，AI 資料中心要簡單得多——基本上就是太陽能板加散熱器，一些基礎衛星運行裝置，再加上雷射鏈路，接入星鏈通訊星座，然後傳回地面。無論天氣如何都能連接，因為一旦通過雷射接入星鏈通訊星座，星鏈到地面的通訊使用的是穿透雲層的頻率，甚至在一定程度上能穿透屋頂。所以你隨時都能和資料中心保持連接。
Elon Musk: We don't think this is a particularly difficult thing to do. In fact, we think it's easier than our communications satellites. Quite a bit easier than our communications satellites. The Starlink V3 communications satellite is an incredibly complex machine. The AI data center would be much simpler by comparison, because it's really just solar power plus radiator, some basic equipment for operating the satellite, and then the laser links, which would connect to the Starlink communications constellation. And then back to the ground. The connection would happen no matter what the weather is because once you connect via lasers to the Starlink communication constellation, the Starlink communicates to the ground with frequencies that are cloud penetrating. In fact, even roof penetrating to some degree. So you would always be able to close link with the data centers.
傑米·戴蒙：很好。說到美國，這裡有一件大事——我們長期以來一直在討論美國的再工業化，讓先進製造業回流。而你現在要建 TerraFab，在紐約建晶片工廠。你手裡已經這麼多事情了，是什麼驅使你現在去做這件事？
Jamie Dimon: Excellent. Talking about America, one of the big things here, we've been talking about the reindustrialization of America for a long time, bringing back advanced manufacturing, and now you're talking about building the TerraFab, building chip fabs in New York. What compelled you to do that now with all the other things you're working on?
伊隆·馬斯克：限制因素是什麼？我們看到的限制因素是晶片製造能力——邏輯晶片、儲存晶片，還有封裝。值得注意的是，目前美國境內沒有一條高產能的電腦記憶體生產線。一條都沒有。美光科技在愛達荷州在建一條，但我覺得要到 2028 年才能量產。紐約也有一些在建項目，但大概是 2029、2030 年的事了。而這只是所需記憶體的極小一部分。實際上，即便你把各家記憶體和邏輯晶片廠商最樂觀的擴產計畫全都算上，也遠遠滿足不了預期的需求。這就是為什麼你看到美光的市值漲到了 1.2 萬億美元之類的高位。
Elon Musk: So what's the limiting factor? And the limiting factor, what we see as the limiting factor is being able to make chips, both logic, memory, and packaging. It's worth noting that there's not a single high-volume computer memory fab in America right now. Zero. There's one being built in Idaho by Micron, but that will not reach volume production until, I believe, 2028. And there's something built in New York, but they are, I think, 29 and 30. And this is a tiny fraction of the memory that's needed. And in fact, even if you take the best case assumptions of the memory makers and the logic makers, it is not enough to meet the demand that is anticipated. Which is why you're seeing stocks of micron go to I think 1.2 trillion or some quite high number.
伊隆·馬斯克：所以很明顯，對 AI 邏輯晶片、儲存晶片和封裝——本質上就是 AI 電腦——的需求遠遠超過了現有製造商最樂觀的擴產計畫。這就是為什麼我們需要做 TerraFab。它看起來是必然之舉，否則晶片根本不夠用。
Elon Musk: So there's just clearly a need for AI logic memory and packaging, AI computers essentially, that is far beyond what even the best case assumptions of the existing fabricators can do. And that's why we need to do the TerraFab. Yeah, it seems like essential, otherwise we will not, there will not be enough chips.
傑米·戴蒙：我再問一個關於你正在建造的東西的問題，然後稍微聊點別的。AI 戰略——你還把 Grok 引入了 SpaceX。這在你建構的整個平台中扮演什麼角色？
Jamie Dimon: So I'm going to do one more on some of the stuff you're building and then a little bit more on other issues. AI strategy, you've also bought, took Grok inside into SpaceX. How does that fit into this platform you're building?
伊隆·馬斯克：我們的 SpaceX AI 衛星計畫是讓使用者可以把任何他們想要的 GPU 或 TPU 放上去。輝達的 GPU 可以放，Google的 TPU 可以放，亞馬遜 Trainium 或者其他任何晶片都可以放。未來我們也會提供自己的晶片。同時，我想到時候我們也想提供自己的 AI 軟體。但核心是：你可以在 SpaceX 的 AI 衛星上運行任何人的 AI 硬體或軟體。
Elon Musk: So we do intend with our SpaceX AI satellites to allow people to put whatever GPU or TPU they want. So if NVIDIA GPUs can be put on it, Google TPUs can be put on it, Amazon Trainiums or any other chips that people want to put on, can be put on. We'll also offer our chips in the future. And I think we also want to offer our software, our AI software as well in the future. But it will be such that you can run anyone's AI hardware or software on the Tesla AI satellite, SpaceX AI satellites.
傑米·戴蒙：接下來三個問題完全不同。我一個一個來。第一個關於對愛國主義的看法和為國家的服務。第二個關於企業文化與人才梯隊——你到底是怎麼打造這些優秀公司的？在座很多人都有類似的問題。第三個關於領導力，我有個非常具體的問題。但先從愛國主義開始吧。你一直在為這個國家服務，我知道你是個愛國者，我們聊過。你如何看待自己作為一個美國愛國者的角色，如何幫助美國？
Jamie Dimon: So the next three are completely different. I'm going to mention each one. I'll ask you each one. But one's about his view of patriotism and service to this country. One's about culture and bench. How do you actually build these wonderful companies? Because a lot of people here have those issues. And then kind of leadership. I have a very specific question about that. But first I'll start with patriotism. You've served this country. I know you're a patriot. We've spoken about it. How do you view your role of being an American patriot helping the United States?
伊隆·馬斯克：是的，我極其支援美國，一直如此。SpaceX 確實為國防部做了大量工作——現在叫"戰爭部"了。我們有一個部門叫星盾（Starshield），提供軍事通訊，還有一些涉密的東西不能談。但我們確實在幫助戰爭部和情報部門，為政府的關鍵組成部分提供支援。總而言之，我就是超級支援美國，一直是這樣。
Elon Musk: But yeah, I'm incredibly pro-American, and I can always tap in. Yeah, SpaceX does do a lot of work for the Department of Defense, Department of War these days. We have a division called Starshield, which provides military communications and there's some other stuff that's kind of classified. We can't talk about that, but we are helping the Department of War and Intel, part of the government, a vital element of that. Yeah, I'm just super pro-America. Always have been.
傑米·戴蒙：謝謝。企業文化與人才梯隊。佈雷特，我認識你 15、20 年了。我知道 SpaceX 培養了一批非常深厚的人才梯隊。你是怎麼保持的？什麼對你來說最重要？你怎麼確保留住最優秀的人才？
Jamie Dimon: Thank you. Culture bench. Brett, I've been with you for 15, 20 years. I know you've built a huge bench in SpaceX. How do you keep it going? What's important to you? How do you make sure you keep the best talent?
伊隆·馬斯克：格溫大概是第七個加入公司的人，那是在 2002 年，已經 24 年了。總體來看，公司的高管層任期都非常長。布倫特·約翰遜已經做了 15 年的 CFO。我想這是因為大家真的相信公司的使命。他們想留下來，想繼續建構這一切。我們要讓人類成為跨行星文明，我們要把人類帶到火星、月球，最終走得更遠。這就像把科幻變成現實，去往從未被探索過的地方，讓《星際迷航》成真。
Elon Musk: Yeah, Gwyn was I think around the seventh person to join the company, and that was 2002. So it's been like 24 years. And generally the senior executives at the company have a very long tenure. I think Brent Johnson's been CFO for 15 years. And yeah, like we're I think because people really believe in the mission, I think they want to stay and they want to keep building it. We want to make humanity a space-faring civilization. We want to take humanity to Mars and the Moon and ultimately beyond. It's like science fiction, make it real. Go to places that have never been explored before. Make Star Trek real.
傑米·戴蒙：那是我最喜歡的劇之一。
Jamie Dimon: That was one of my favorite shows.
伊隆·馬斯克：是啊。
Elon Musk: Yeah.
傑米·戴蒙：很好。最後一個問題，你創辦了多家公司。從 20 年前到現在，你有什麼變化？也許我該直接問你——從剛起步到今天，你學到了什麼？作為領導者，作為個人，你是如何變化的？
Jamie Dimon: Excellent. And then last one, you've built multiple companies. How have you changed from maybe 20 years ago? Actually, maybe I should ask you guys. How have you changed from like when you started to today, lessons you've learned, how you've changed both as a leader and as a person?
伊隆·馬斯克：我覺得我比以前更冷靜了。比以前放鬆多了。當然也不是特別放鬆，但確實比以前好很多。還有一件事我逐漸體會到的，我以前也提過：在招人和用人的時候，個人能力和智力水平固然重要，但這個人是否有一顆善良的心也很關鍵。不光看智商有多高，還要看是不是一個好人，這一點非常重要。怎麼說呢，我覺得我學到了很多，雖然我還感覺有很多東西要學，也犯了很多錯。但也許未來 AI 會評價一句：作為一個人類來說，還不錯。
Elon Musk: I think I'm probably more chill than I used to be. So I'm way more laid back than I used to be. Not that laid back, but more than I used to be for sure. And one of the things that I found over time I mentioned this before, is that in terms of recruiting people to the company and having people work at the company, their individual abilities and their intellectual capabilities matter a lot, but it also matters if they have a good heart. It's not just about whether somebody has a certain IQ or whatever, but just they're a good person. That matters a lot. I don't know. I guess I've learned a lot, although I feel like I still have a lot to learn and make a lot of mistakes. But I think maybe the future AI will say, not bad for a human.
傑米·戴蒙：在感謝伊隆到來之前，我想由衷地說一句——看著你一家一家地創辦公司，我迫不及待想看到下一個 10 年或 15 年你會實現什麼、夢想什麼：登上火星、開創新的事業、持續創造。伊隆，我代表在座的每個人感謝你今天來到這裡，分享你的想法。外面有關於 SpaceX 上市的宣傳冊供大家取閱。伊隆，謝謝你。
Jamie Dimon: Listen, before we thank Elon for coming, I just want to thank him. Just watching him build companies and I can't wait to watch the next 10 or 15 years about what you accomplish and what you dream of and getting to Mars and building new businesses and being creative. So, Elon, I want to thank you on behalf of everybody for coming here, sharing your ideas. There are brochures out there about the whole SpaceX thing. But Elon, thank you.
主持人：我想說，距離 7 月 4 日獨立日恰好還有一個月。
Host: I will say that we are exactly one month away from the Fourth of July.』
參考連結：
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aTfE_UM7sU (大咖觀點)